The atheist has no basis for making objective truth claims without revelation from an all-knowing being — God!
Check out this short “debate”!
Atheist versus Christian (Video)
Published by Chad Marinelli
Chad is a passionate preacher, teacher, writer, and church leader. He has directed discipleship programs, youth ministries, worship teams, and street evangelism teams for over twenty years, and currently serves as Professor of Biblical Music and Worship at Master's International University of Divinity. He is also an Operations Research Scientist, specializing in supply chain and logistics mathematical modeling. He graduated from Grove City College (B.S.), Youngstown State University (M.S.), and Master’s International University of Divinity (M.Min, D.BiblicalStudies). He has an amazing wife and three sons. They currently live in Ocala Florida. View all posts by Chad Marinelli
Published
The Middle Ground 
“The atheist has no basis for making objective truth claims without revelation from an all-knowing being — God!”
Yep, more fail from christians. No need for their imaginary friend to know what truth and facts are. we can know that we are accurate since we correctly interact with our environment.
And since these christians can’t agree on what morality their god wants, not one can show that their morality is objective or from any god at all.
Christian morality is demonstrably subjective, with each inventing a list of morals they claim their god wants, and yet the poor dears can’t show that their god merely exists, much less agrees with them. They also have the problem that they must insist that their god doesn’t have to follow these supposedly “objective” morals since they have to invent excuses why it is okay for this god to commit genocide, to kill people for the actions of others, etc. This makes their morality subjective to who someone is. it also shows their morality is little more than might equals right.
Curious how they can’t agree on what their god has “revealed” to them, with each version of christianity sure that only they have the right one, and not a single christian can show their claims to be true.
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Thanks for interacting. I appreciate your candid response. Regarding the following:
“we can know that we are accurate since we correctly interact with our environment.”
1) Does someone with mental impairment (either genetic or via trauma) correctly interact with their environment
2) Did the first human-like creatures correctly interact with their environment?
3) Will humans 100000 years from now, with more evolved brains, and after having overturned half of our scientific theories, more correctly interact with the environment than us? **
4) Can the human brain, either individually, or collectively, in any state less than perfectly evolved and united with its environment, objectively make truth claims about it
The truth is, without objective revelation from an objective “being” who entirely upholds and knows the creation, you can’t be sure of your partially evolved perceptions in that lump of matter that came together in your skull via “randomly” guided forces. In your worldview, it’s a sum of randomness from nothing.
As for Christianity, I understand the frustration. But even Jesus said many would get it wrong because of our sinfulness. The failure of interpretation on the part of humans has no bearing on whether the plumbline exists. That’s like someone denying plants exist because of bad gardeners. Plus, all Orthodox Christians stand united on the major decrees of the faith handed down from the beginning. We are united on the majors, and only bicker on the minors.
I do appreciate your input, but really wish you would see the futility in trying to claim anything objective, especially in the moral realm, outside of your own relative perception as an organism. You have to borrow God to do that.
** I can offer you the top 10 modern scientific assertions that were overturned in my lifetime alone, if you’d like. This demonstrates that future humans would do just that.
Thanks
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No, since mental illness or disease or physical damage indicates that you are not correctly interacting with your environment.
We are here so yep, the first humans, and all of our ancestors did interact correctly.
Why wouldn’t humans 10 or 100,000 years from now interact correctly with the environment? You baselessly assume that theories will be overturned. You also baselessly think they will act any differently. Like most Christians, you seem to have no idea what evolutionary theory actually says. No evolution unless there are environmental forces causing it.
No such thing as “perfect” evolution, and again, it’s a shame that Christians are too afraid or lazy to learn about what they attack.
Yep, humans make truth claims all of the time, and since we have methods to reduce or eliminate bias, we can make objective claims. For example, I can objectively claim that your hand will burn if you put it in molten steel unprotected. Or do you want to test that? It seems like many Christians, your arguments end up in little more than solipsism.
The truth isn’t from your imaginary friend or your religion. No evidence your imaginary friend exists or upholds anything. You make the same baseless claims as any other religion.
no “randomly guided” forces, the laws of physics are quite well known. So your ignorance fails again, and no god needed.
As a Christian, you are just one of billions of humans who can’t agree on the most basic things in your religion and each one of you claims to have a “truth” you can’t demonstrate. I do get frustrated when you all lie and claim that only your religion is the right one, but then I realize I can just laugh at those who have nothing to support their claims. It’s when your lies cause real harm that I do get frustrated and indeed, angry.
Curious how each Christian is ever so sure that they aren’t part of the “many how get it wrong”, and you each arrogantly make false claims you can’t support.
The failure of your god being so incompetent to not be able to make itself understood to puny humans has complete bearing on your religion and its failure. Alas, your analogy fails since you can’t show your god or any gods to exist, and each Christian makes up their own since you can’t agree on what morals it wants, how it saved people, who is saves, etc.
Unsurprisngly, orthodox Christians aren’t the only Christians, and they differ from the catholics, protestants, Calvinists, anabaptists, Mormons, JWs, unitarians, etc on the most basic things: free will vs predetermination, what morals your god wants, how to interpret your bible, what heaven and hell are, etc. You aren’t united on the “majors” at all, and not one of you self-professed Christians can do what jesus promises to his true followers, that you would be able to do healing, miracles like him, get any prayer answered, etc.
Each Christian is sure that only they are the TrueChristians™.
I’m sure you wish I would not show how your lies fail. Alas, you can’t show your god exists or that it is needed for anything at all.
Yep, science can change with new evidence. So? Funny how that still doesn’t show your imaginary friend exists.
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You may not know the specifics of my background, my knowledge of evolution, or my acceptance level of it. I am not arguing for or against evolution. I simply alluded to evolution to illustrate that if we are indeed evolving, the surviving humans one million years from now could have completely different perceptions, much like how dogs today perceive the world differently from us. Even collectively, a group of dogs may interpret their environment similarly, yet with less understanding than us due to the differences in brain evolution. Similarly, future humans might view our current understanding as imperfect. As our methods evolve, they could claim far different objective truths about many things we believe we understand perfectly now.
Within your environment, you and similar organisms have allegedly evolved to survive through various circumstances. Your brain has interpreted certain perceptions as repeatable causal chains, which you claim to be objectively correct. I find it interesting that you refer to these repeatable perceptions as the “laws of physics.” The term “law” implies a lawgiver, meaning the way things are designed to work consistently. I’m simply stating that you have no basis to assert “law” beyond your immediate environment (local space and time). A law is only a law if an ultimate being of the universe designed it to be sustained at all times and places. You cannot be certain that this will always be the case. You may assert a high probability, but not 100% certainty.
This is similar to God’s existence. You live in a minuscule fraction of the universe’s space and time, yet you claim that there is no God, anywhere, at any time. You cannot say that with certainty. Your worldview revolves around probabilities, not certainties, and not full objectivity.
Regarding morality, you have no objective basis to extend beyond your personal opinion. If you were to debate Hitler about why his actions were wrong, neither of you could win that argument without an ultimate objective basis for rightness or wrongness beyond popular opinion.
It is no failure on God’s part to communicate to puny humans. If you understand the storyline of redemptive history, you would know that humanity willingly forfeited perfect communion with God in the beginning. Because of that, our entire creation, including our senses, moral desires, rationality, etc has been marred. It’s a human problem, not a God problem. Yet, in love, He sent His son to pay the ultimate price to reconcile us, and gave the evidence of His resurrection, a calendar altering event reported by multiple eyewitnesses, and passed down reliably for centuries.
When I say “orthodox” I mean all Christians who hold to the core tenets of Christianity – Presyberians, Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, etc. I’m in a church transition now, visiting many different denominations, and they are all saying most of the same things. We have much more unity than you allege. I’m sorry for the fringe folks that make it appear different when looking outside in. Your phrase “Each Christian is sure that only they are the TrueChristians” couldn’t be further from the truth. There is more ecumenical fervor now than ever. All the Christians I know from various churches embrace and accept each other as part of the universal church. You are speaking from ignorance. Only a fringe of prosperity faith healers claim that all Christians can do miracles. Most of the church agrees that the gifts of miracles were performed at the onset of the church age as a validation of Christ’s ministry. Those gifts aren’t for all Christians at all times. It makes me ill when I hear about the alleged “damage” Christianity does, when every town I’ve lived in had universities and hospitals started by Christians, homeless shelters, food banks, disaster relief agencies. Christians have shaped the civilized society you live in. Let there be no mistake about that.
I can’t prove God to you because, as my video shows, the fall of humanity has blinded you. No answer or evidence would be good enough. Feel free to read “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” by Norm Geisler, if you want to dig into the reliability of the eyewitness testimony of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
I’ll pray for you, that He’ll open your eyes.
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I know that you are typically ignorant about evolution and that is well demonstrated by your own words, Chad. You attempted to lie about evolution and have shown you have no idea what it actually says or how it works. Again, still no evidence your god exists or is needed to understand anything. Your assertion still fails.
Still no evidence your god is needed for objective truths. Christians can’t show that their morals come from their god nor that any version of them is “objective”. But do proceed to show how you know your morality is objective. You can, right?
ROFL. It’s hilarious when you claim “allegedly evolved” when you can’t show otherwise, Chad. We have done exactly that and again you show you have no idea what evolutionary theory says. My brain, and those of my ancestors has interpreted perceptions correctly and yep, I’m still here so they are correct and objectively correct.
Christians often try the false claim that using the term “laws” “implies a lawgiver”. Nope, it doesn’t, but nice try. A law in science doesn’t need your imaginary friend at all. A law is simply “Scientific laws or laws of science are statements, based on repeated experiments or observations, that describe or predict a range of natural phenomena.” And you fail again with your baseless assertions. Still no evidence for your god. You are simply lying when you try such incompetent claims. Things work consistently, again, no evidence for your god or that it is needed. You have yet to show your god is the one and only, Chad. Please proceed to do that.
I have plenty of basis to know that physics is consistent since us humans are clever primates and can observe places far away from us in space and time. You do know how telescopes work, right? You have nothing to show it is not the case, and your claims of miracles, those little local destructions of physical laws, can’t be shown to ever happen.
You also seem to have no clue about probability either, Chat. Depending on something that you have no data to generate the probability for fails too. As is typical for christains, you have to keep pretending that your god is out there “somewhere”, which makes it so vague that you have no ablity to show it exists at all.
Again, your god has many attributes claimed for it, and thus your god can’t just exist anywhere. Your god is claimed to be omnipresent, so just why would time and distance matter? You try to claim it is somewhere else, and yet it should be right here per your bible. Your god isn’t a worm on Ceti Alpha V, so it isn’t there either. So, nope, my worldview doesn’t revolve around probabilities, and your god still can’t be found at all.
Yep, no objective morality, so my opinions about it are mine, no one else’s. You still can’t show that Christian morality, any version of it, is objective, Chad. I’m still waiting for you to do that. Why can’t you? You’re right, no one would win, neither me, or hitler, or you. That doesn’t mean we humans don’t have morals. They are simply subjective. No objective morals in existence or needed.
Actually it is failure on your god’s part to communicate clearly to puny humans. Your god is claimed to be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. If it intentionally makes people kill each other by their inability to understand what it wants, that is its choice and you end up with a god not as you Christians describe it.
Per your own bible, humans didn’t forfeit anything. Your god made two amoral humans; it literally did not want them to have morality. It then told them not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to gain morality. Having no idea what good or evil means, they have no idea that obedience is “good”; there is no value judgement to be made. Then this god either allows satan in, and doesn’t warn adam and eve, or can’t keep it out and has no idea it is there. This means it is either working with satan or is not omnipotent or omniscient. Per the bible, satan is the second most powerful being in the universe, and is alone with two ignorant humans.
Satan says that this god lied when it said adam and eve would die the day they ate of it. No ‘spiritual death’ is mentioned at all. They hadn’t eaten from the tree of life, so they were still mortal. Eve believes it, since this god has said everything in the garden is okay, and gains morality for humanity. Your god never gives humanity to humans.
Then this god throws a temper tantrum, upset that now Adam and eve have morality, something it did not want. Adam and Eve did not have morality before, so this is the sole reason that this god is upset. Rather than explain itself, and hmm, forgive them, this god throws them out of eden, and curses them and everyone else for what two people did, thanks to this god’s failure with Satan.
No evidence for any “fall”, so your myth is no more true than any other “fall” myth from any other religion. If your god cursed our senses, etc, the it is responsible for any misunderstanding. It’s completely a god problem.
Then you claim in “love”, this god fails repeatedly to fix this problem, the flood fails, babel fails, the laws fail, and every time this god promises it’ll work that time. Then we have the invention of this god needing a human blood sacrifice by torture to make it happy and give it an excuse to make a loophole in the rules it made in the first place. Rules it changed since it promised that following the laws would work, no human sacrificed needed. Being omniscient, it would know that they would work, right?
Then you claim that the calendar mentions your religion, so that makes your religion true. ROFL. It also mentions the Norse gods, the roman gods, etc, so that must make those religions true too. No evidence for any resurrection, just four(five if you count acts) stories that can’t agree on their claims. No eyewitnesses, again just stories. Funny how paul invents 500 witnesses, which magically vanish, and has no idea that the women were witnesses. No reliability at all.
Yes, I know you try to claim that the only “orthodox” Christians are those that agree with you and what you claim as the “core tenents of Christianity”. Every Christian claims that for their version too, Chad. And not one of you frauds can show your version is true at all. Presbyterians don’t agree with Cathlics on a very core tenant, is it free will or predestination?
You are, like many Christians, church shopping for one that agrees with what you want. This is one of the things that C.S. Lewis did get right in his predictions in the Screwtape letters. Christians don’t say “most of the same things”, but nice try. They disagree on: free will vs predestination, who is saved, how someone is saved, what baptism does and how to do it, what born again/ born from above means, how to interpret their bible (which parts are literal, metaphor, exaggeration, etc), what morals their god wants, what their god considers a “sin”, etc.
You like all Christians claim that those Christians yu don’t agree with are “fringe folks”, and again, Chad, you can’t show you are any better than they are. Christians have no unity. If they did, I’d not be able to walk past a dozen different churches on my way to work. No ecumenical fervor at all, and you do a great job of showing how your claims are false with your own words: “I’m sorry for the fringe folks that make it appear different when looking outside in.” and “I’m in a church transition now, visiting many different denominations, and they are all saying most of the same things.” Why have ot make a decision, per your own claims, any should suffice. Nice fail there.
You claim “. All the Christians I know from various churches embrace and accept each other as part of the universal church.” And yet you have stated you need to look for the “right” church.
And then more fail. “Only a fringe of prosperity faith healers claim that all Christians can do miracles. Most of the church agrees that the gifts of miracles were performed at the onset of the church age as a validation of Christ’s ministry. Those gifts aren’t for all Christians at all times. It makes me ill when I hear about the alleged “damage” Christianity does, when every town I’ve lived in had universities and hospitals started by Christians, homeless shelters, food banks, disaster relief agencies. Christians have shaped the civilized society you live in. Let there be no mistake about that.”
Funny how your bible says any true follower of Christ will be able to do miracles like him. Is your bible lying here, Chad? 8 Philip said to him, ‘Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.’ 9 Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, “Show us the Father”? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it.
15 ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you for ever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, because he abides with you, and he will be in[h] you.
18 ‘I will not leave you orphaned; I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 They who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me; and those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.’ 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, ‘Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us, and not to the world?’ 23 Jesus answered him, ‘Those who love me will keep my word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; and the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.
25 ‘I have said these things to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, “I am going away, and I am coming to you.” If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you this before it occurs, so that when it does occur, you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me; 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us be on our way.” John 14
So, we see you lying about what your bible promises, Chad. Christians can’t agree if miracles still happen or not. Some do and some don’t (look up cessationists). And neither side can show that their claims are true.
I’m sure it does make you ill when someone points out how your religion causes damage with evidence. Your religion has murdered each other for centuries. Your religion has murdered the members of other religions and of none. Your religion has tortured people to get them to convert to another version of the same religion. All of these things are documented. Catholics burning protestants, protestants burning catholics, etc etc.
You then try to lie that Christians were the ones who started universities, hospitals, etc when that is simply a lie. Yep, they started some of them, not all. Your religion depends on false claims made by Christians. Members of other religions and none at all have foodbanks, homeless shelters, disaster relief, etc. Your ignorance and arrogance are quite visible.
Christian shave indeed helped shape civilization, for good and bad. Just like every other culture, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, Indian (Asian), native American, Celts, Norse, etc. You are not the only contributors to “western civilization” a noted dogwhistle for Christian nationalists.
Yes, I know you can’t prove your god exists or any gods exist. No fall, and if the fall blinded me, no free will, so many Christians are simply lying yet again. I have read Geisler’s book and it’s just another Christian apologist who has no evidence for his god either, Chad. And his baseless claims are used by Strobel, McDowell, Craig, etc. No eyewitnesses as I have indicated above. Curious how no one noticed anything about your jesus, despite the ridiculous claims in the bible. Why didn’t anyone notice the dead jews wandering around roman-occupied Jerusalem during a Passover, Chad? You have one claim from one anonymous author of the gospel of “matthew”. Why didn’t Caiaphas or pilate note the riots that would have happened? Why are there no mentions of this jesus as miracle worker in other places in the middle east like your bible baselessly claims?
I’ve had literally hundreds of christiansn of all versions pray for me to agree with them over the last 30+ years. Despite the promises in the bible, you’ve all been complete failures. Why is that, Chad? Is it that your god loves me as I am? Your god doesn’t think any of you are true believers? Or is it that your god is imaginary?
Your choice.
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I feel like we will just spin in circles continuously in these comments. But one thing I will address is the fact that you are calling me dishonest. I assure you, I have studied evolution as one who is quite open to various forms of theistic evolution. When I mentioned “unguided” forces I honestly meant what I meant – Circumstances aren’t the forces that largely create mutations; they are mere externalities that may dictate which randomly mutated organisms can survive. No, mutations are largely spontaneous. When I said unguided I was referring to these.
“Still no evidence your god is needed for objective truths”
Is it objectively true that it is wrong to kill someone for fun? Can you give a yes/no answer without appealing to “because another person or group of people say so”, because other people, and even other groups of people may disagree. And also don’t appeal to “because it helps humanity to survive”. What makes humanity’s survival objectively “right”? Maybe we need to go extinct to let the earth survive. You have no basis for any moral statement. I can objectively say, “because the divine creator who owns me says it’s wrong”. He sets my plumbline because He owns me.
“Christians often try the false claim that using the term “laws” “implies a lawgiver””
I agree that we can have a high probability of things via repeatable experiments. What I’m coming against is 100% certainty without a Law that is fixed by design. Using the term “law” implies the latter, not the former. If we aren’t 100% sure, then it’s a prediction. Before the big bang, everything’s off the table. At any moment all of our alleged “laws” could be imploded by a cosmic event that never happened before; Unless, of course, our divine lawmaker told us He was sustaining the universe uniformly. Again, this whole thing started with “objective” 100% assertions for all times, places, etc.
“You also seem to have no clue about probability either”.
Wow, you are quite a character basher. LOL. I’m a Principal Operations & Data Scientist at a world renowned company. I work with probabilities daily, solving problems that are enormous in size and complexity. I recently presented at an enterprise wide summit on the use of Machine Learning (AI) in optimization modeling. Step off.
“ your claims of miracles, those little local destructions of physical laws, can’t be shown to ever happen.”
First of all, the very fact that we have a universe from a singularity is a miracle. Secondly, the laws of the universe which have amazing “constants” holding us all together, is a miracle, which even Dawkins admits appears like design. Thirdly, you fail to acknowledge miracles which have been reported reliably, like the resurrection of Christ, which even non-Christian scholars agree on these minimal facts: Jesus died by crucifixion, His tomb was found empty, Disciples experienced appearances of the risen Jesus, The disciples’ lives were radically transformed and they knew they would die for their belief. Or local miracles like the extensively documented medical cases of the healing of Marie Bailly and John Traynor. I had a friendship with Barbara Cummiskey Snyder, who experienced a remarkable healing from severe multiple sclerosis (MS). Her condition had deteriorated to the point where she was under hospice care, with a grim prognosis. However, after a prayer gathering, she experienced an immediate and complete recovery.
“your god still can’t be found at all.”
God is a spirit (John 4:24), invisible (1 Timothy 1:17), dwelling in unapproachable light (1 Timothy 6:16). Just because we can’t see Him with our eyes doesn’t mean He isn’t present. The unbeliever’s spiritual blindness (2 Corinthians 4:4; John 12:40) prevents them from seeing His presence, but that doesn’t negate His existence or reality.
“If it intentionally makes people kill each other by their inability to understand what it wants”
Jesus was quite pacifistic. He condemned violence, and told us to turn the other cheek. Humans are the screw ups. Again, don’t let bad vegetables nullify the reality of the garden. If anything, Christians have brought light and life to uncivilized humanity. All modern institutions, including science, came from Christians who wanted to spread God’s kingdom across the world. Of course, there were false Christians who had wrong agendas and did bad. But Jesus said that would happen, which further vindicates his prophetic accuracy. The reason atheism looks so non-violent is because: 1) There aren’t many, 2) Those that exist are mostly in economies and institutions that were originally theistic. Mao Zedong’s regime in China, officially atheistic, tops the list as the deadliest regime in history.
Adam, Eve, God, and Satan
What happened was God’s plan. He’s not puny, weak, localized, etc. It happened just as planned. God knew there would be evil in this world. Read Romans 9, which talks about “vessels of wrath” to show his glory to “vessels of mercy”. God has a universe in which there is a balance, yin/yang, victory/loss, pain/healing, etc. These things grow and mature His people and demonstrate, not just His love, but His judgment, wrath, and holiness. But why would that bother you? Evil is imaginary, right? As soon as they were cast out of Eden, God clothed them and blessed them. All through Redemptive history, He approached His people, even visibly, with covenants and promises. The Old Testament is filled with chance after chance, grace after grace. Then 2000 years ago, He came Himself to experience all the wrath, to undo, outdo, and overdue all that was destroyed in Adam. The ultimate act of love in Jesus Christ. Yet even in the Garden after the fall, the promise of the coming Christ was made (Genesis 3:15). Prophecies and foreshadows fill the pages of the Old Testament. All amazing!
“promised that following the laws would work”
Yes He did. Yet, no one was willing to fully keep the Old Testament laws, despite their promise of reconciliation with God. In Mark 10:17-22, Jesus tells the rich young ruler that if he keeps all the commandments, he will inherit eternal life. However, Jesus also taught that the law wasn’t just about external actions but internal attitudes as well. In Matthew 5:21-22, He explained that anger is akin to murder, and in Matthew 5:27-28, He equated lust with adultery. This was nothing new. The Old Testament emphasizes internal righteousness, such as in Leviticus 19:17, which warns against hating your brother in your heart, and Exodus 20:17, which forbids coveting your neighbor’s possessions. Therefore, the law’s full demands highlighted humanity’s need for a Savior, who would fulfill the law’s requirements both externally and internally. The shedding of blood is required for the full remission of sin. While I don’t understand it fully, I think it makes some sense. Our government has a potential death penalty for treason. Imagine every sin ultimately being against the divine, infinitely holy Lawgiver. That’s infinite treason!
“No eyewitnesses, again just stories.”
Dude, the Gospel ARE eyewitness testimonies. Harvard professor Simon Greenleaf, the “father of modern legal evidence”, argued that the New Testament accounts of the resurrection are reliable eyewitness testimonies. He stated, “The credit due to the testimony of witnesses depends upon, firstly, their honesty; secondly, their ability; thirdly, their number and the consistency of their testimony; fourthly, the conformity of their testimony with experience; and fifthly, the coincidence of their testimony with collateral circumstances”. You just don’t want these to be true. Let’s face it. You choose “NO GOD” and therefore have to dismiss all eyewitness accounts to any miracle.
“core tenents of Christianity”
You are so wrong here. Christians are marked by their adherence to the Apostle’s creed. We all agree on that. That’s the core. I love the Screwtape letters. Yes, the devil loves disagreements, and yes we may have silly disagreements on the mechanics of salvation. But at the end of the day, we mostly agree that we’ll be in heaven together.
“you can’t show you are any better than they are”
My gosh, you keep beating the unity horse. Did some church member offend you into atheism? Just wondering about your story bro. Anyhow, who ever said, “better?” Different sects simply want to interpret the Bible faithfully, as the Bible itself encourages us to do that. It’s not about superiority but obedience. Christians interpreting the Bible differently is similar to scientists having varied interpretations of evidence. In both cases, the focus isn’t on being better, but on striving for accuracy
“You claim “. All the Christians I know from various churches embrace and accept each other as part of the universal church.” And yet you have stated you need to look for the “right” church.”
I’m church shopping because the church I was at became “concert-like” and it made me realize I wanted to get back to a setting that’s more like the historical church – liturgical/traditional, etc. Does that make that the “right church”? No. I still love those people, and believe they have the message of Christianity right and will be with me in heaven. I just don’t even know why you’re debating this. It has no bearing on whether God is real. He never promised anyone that we would be perfect, and to use that as proof for His existence. In fact, He said there would be false teachers and division in the last days (Mt 24:24, 2 Thess 2:3). So maybe the disunity you see, you should consider as evidence for God, since it is fulfilled prophecy!
Quoting of John 14
John 14 doesn’t suggest that every believer will perform the same miracles Jesus did. Paul clarifies in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30 that not everyone has the gift of miracles, highlighting the variety of spiritual gifts. Jesus is speaking to His disciples in John 14 (not everyone), and the “greater works” refer to a greater quality (not quantity) of miracles, namely the ability to impart the Holy Spirit. This would be possible because Jesus was “going to the Father” (John 14:12). In John 14-16, Jesus repeatedly explains that His departure is necessary for the coming of the Holy Spirit who would bear witness of Him (John 14:16-17, John 16:7). The apostles had the gift of miracles, and also demonstrated this greater work, laying hands on people throughout the books of Acts and imparting the Holy Spirit to them. This Spirit would then bear witness of Christ in and through them; a more powerful thing than any of Jesus’ miracles.
“Christians can’t agree if miracles still happen or not. Some do and some don’t (look up cessationists).”
So what. Again, they all agree on the miracle of the resurrection. Even if no other miracle ever happened, that’s all that matters for Christianity. You also seem to not have studied cessationism, as it doesn’t teach the cessation of all miracles. It teaches the cessation of the “on demand” gifts of miracles the apostles had. My cessationist friend prays for and acknowledges that rare miracles have occurred even in his lifetime.
“Curious how no one noticed anything about your jesus, despite the ridiculous claims in the bible”
Well, enough has been preserved through the Gospels and various early Romans and Jewish historians, to piece together the “minimal facts” that even most liberal scholars agree with concerning the events surrounding Christ’s alleged resurrection. That’s all that matters. Is it demonstrable in a lab? Of course not! Neither is any historical murder. It’s forensic evaluation, and it’s enough for me. It’s not for you. That’s fine. I’ll pray for you just like all the others. I have friends who were unshakable for decades until God knocked them off their proverbial horse and radically changed their life.
“despite the promises in the Bible, you’ve all been complete failures”
That’s the beauty of it, the very promise in the Bible is that, within our failures, our security is in Christ. He’s the perfect one. In Him we have redemption and forgiveness. One day He will come and perfect us. Until then, yes we strive to live like Him, and yes He commands that. But, He forgives via a simple trust in Him. 1 John 1:8-9: “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”
Chad
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Yes, I am calling you dishonest and I have shown you being dishonest. You have no idea what evolutionary theory states. Theistic evolution is complete nonsense so if you have studied that, you still have no idea what evolutionary theory is. Mutations are caused by the environment. They don’t just magically happen.
I see I am correct that you can’t show any objective morality. Nothing shows that murder, an unlawful killing objectively wrong. It is certainly considered subjectively wrong by at least the victim. And yes, since morality is subjective, I have to refer to somene else or myself. Chad, where are the objective morals? How can you shw they are objective. You simply seem to assume they are.
Why not say that it helps humanity to survive? It’s hilarious when you think you can demand I don’t use the logical argument, and surprise you can’t counter it. Nothing about humanity’s survival is objectively right. Again, where’s that objective morality, Chad? You are dancing all over the place to avoid that simple question. Yes, you can say your god sets your morality, but you can’t show your god exists or that objective morality exists. Any theist can make claims about their god. Their problem is showing evidence to support those claims.
Again, no argument how laws demand a lawgiver, which is typical. No need for a law fixed by your imaginary friend. Again, it can simply exist, just like you theists claim that your god simply exists. Your attempts to claim magical things will happen is rather silly. Nothing supports your nonsense that at “any moment” physics stops working. Per your own bible, this god does not sustain the universe uniformly. Every supposed miracle puts that claim to lie. Still looking for somewhere for your god to hide.
Pointing out facts isn’t “character bashing”. Nice to see you already looking for an out from this discussion. No evidence for any of your claims, Chad, and nothing from your attempt to appeal to authority shows you have any knowledge about probability at all.
It’s nothing new to see christains try to claim anything as a miracle since they can’t actually show real ones. Nothing about a singularity is “miraculous”. The science is right there. No evidence constants are miraculous either. They came first, and we fit them, not the other way around.
No evidence for any jesus christ nor any resurrection. You mistake claims and stories for evidence. That’s all the bible is. You need evidence to support it. Unsurprisingly, non-christian scholars do not agree that your man/god existed. Gary Habermas lies and still can’t show who supposedly agrees with him, despite his claims of having some list.
Some do claim that there is a higher probability that a human is at the core of the jesus myth, some poor delusional Jewish fellow who may have been killed for his delusions. Christians do not worship a delusional Jewish fellow, so your appeals to a possible historical jesus fail.
Christians can’t even agree on where their supposed “empty tomb” even is, and no mention of it is made until centuries after the supposed events, which Christians also can’t agree on when they happened. The minimal facts argument fails since not one of the claims is a fact at all.
Cults always transform lives. No evidence for the apostles either. The stories claim they experienced jesus. Nothing supports that story.
No modern miracles either. Mary Bailly is a story from 1902, which has no evidence to back it up. Not even the Vatican believes her “miracle”. And curious how no popes ever go to lourdes but always to the best modern medicine has to offer. No evidence for Traynor’s claims either. Same with Barbara Cummiskey Snyder, who has no medical records, etc to show she had MS nor she was “cured”. Lots of claims, not one checks out. Many Christians try to cite the book by Keener, and surprise, even he admits he didn’t even try to look into the claims.
Christiansn also try to excuse their failure by claiming that their god is only a “spirit”, but the bible says otherwise. Like all cultists, you must invent excuses why you can’t show your god exists. You don’t believe other theists when they make such claims, why should I believe you?
It depends on what book one reads in the bible if jesus was a pacifist or not. Matthew has jesus saying never to resist “evildoers”, and well, luke has jesus saying that anyone who doesn’t want him as king should be brought before him and slaughtered. Which is the “real” jesus?
More complete lies from you, Chad. Christians haven’t brought “light and life” to “uncivilized humanity”. Humans aren’t uncivilized, they have different civilizations, and nothing shows that any culture based on any version of Christianity is “better” than something else. Your Christian nationalism is showing. Christianity didn’t start science. It was one of many sources of how science started. Again, the greeks, romans, Indians, etc all contributed, and your need to lie and steal their contributions is notable.
Nice to see more claims about “fake chritains” when you can’t show your version is the right one, and it shows hwo your claims abut how christains are one big happy family were quite the false claims.
No prophetic accuracy either. The gospels that have your imaginary jesus making these supposed prophecies were written after Christianity split, a supposed prophecy invented to excuse how the religion failed.
Atheism isn’t violent or non-violent. It is simply the conclusion that a particular god or gods doesn’t exist. You are an atheist when it comes to every god but your own. Are you violent?
Then you try the usual nonsense about Mao, Stalin, etc. Curious how you can’t show that it was atheism that caused the genocide. It was megalomania, Chad. Try again. That sme cultures were originally theistic makes no difference since again, those laws you claim to have come from your religion didn’t, and those economies didn’t’ come from your religion either.
Ah, os it was god’s plan to damn humans. So, common Christian lies about free will fail yet again. Your god worked with satan per your claim. And yep, Romans 9 does have that about vessels of wrath, etc, which again shows no free will, just predeterminism. No evidence for any yin/yang in the bible either, no balance, just the claim that no matter what, god wins. It’s hilarious that your supposedly unchanging god now changes per your claim.
Evil isn’t imaginary but nice fail. Evil is a subjective opinion. Still waiting for you to show that morality is objective. Curiosu how your god didn’t bless adam and eve at all, but were cursed. Hmm, where does your god bless them in Genesis 3? 4? 5? And yep, your god did make clothes, which is rather amusing since this god allowed adam and eve to sin and would have left them sinning if they hadn’t gotten morality. Is ignorance an excuse for sin? Is sin just your god’s opinion?
Yep, your god repeatedly tries anad fails with covenants, etc which if it is omniscient, then it knows they will all fail. Why doesn’t it just go straight to the human blood sacrifice by torture? No love in needing a human blood sacrifice by torture. That’s just a petty god like all other gods, that needs blood sacrifices. And no promise of christ in genesis, Christians do love to lie about that too. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.’” Mentions nothing about some “son of god”. Just men and snakes not getting along, no different from Kipling’s just-so stories. Chistians can’t even agree if the snake was just a snake or if it was their imaginary enemy.
no prophecies, no forshadowing, just ridiculous retcons of a set of myths.
still waiting for you to show that morals are objective.
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“Nothing shows that murder, an unlawful killing objectively wrong.”
Finally!!! Thank you for agreeing with my original assertion that your worldview excludes universal objective truth.
Your wanting to plea for “human survival” is fine, but it’s not universally objective at all. For the universe as a whole, what makes humans more valuable than a rock? Humans do things that destroy environments. Should they survive? I’m just showing you that you have no VALUE proposition, no OBJECTIVE function of any creator that imputes VALUE to the human. My worldview asserts that God defines objective morality and reveals it, in a common way to all humanity (hence intersection of most morals across all humans), and via special revelation to prophets (e.g. Moses in the 10 commandments). Our failure as humans or Christians to interpret them in no way eliminate their existence and our accountability to them. I’ll simply state with our founding fathers: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.
“nothing shows that any culture based on any version of Christianity is “better” than something else”
False. My wife belongs to an organization founded by the pilot of Jim Eliot. He and four other missionaries (including the Pilot) were brutally murdered by a tribe in Ecuador that thrived on killing each other and everyone else that came near them. After Jim’s wife returned and lived among them, they all became Christian and live peacefully. My wife visited a few months ago and they loved on her the whole week. Amazing story of transformation. I directly support missionaries who all experience similar transformations.
“The gospels that have your imaginary Jesus making these supposed prophecies were written after Christianity split”
Huh? I’m talking about Old Testament prophecies obviously fulfilled in Christ’s birth location (Micah 5), timing of His anointing (Daniel 9), and detailed suffering (Isaiah 53), and many others. All of which are also in copies of the Septuagint (Before Christ), and in the Dead Sea Scrolls (also before Christ).
Thanks for the conversation.
Chad
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Finally? Poor Chad, I never said anything different. I’m still waiting for you to show objective morality. Where is it, Chad?
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You said, “My brain, and those of my ancestors has interpreted perceptions correctly and yep, I’m still here so they are correct and objectively correct.” While you may oppose “objective morality” semantically, you assert that your perceptions are objective because you have survived.
Objective morality has already been revealed to you through natural revelation. It’s self evident to you. Perhaps you’re in too comfortable of an environment to incite it. Perhaps in a circumstance where a ruthless regime took your freedom and locked you up for no reason, you would be kicking and screaming “this is wrong.. you should not do this..”.
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Nice false claims Chad. My perceptions aren’t objective. They can’t be. They are still my subjective take on the world. They are shown to be accurate with how I interact with facts.
And yep, you have no evidence for objective morality. You try the usual handwaving and claim that it has been magically revealed to me by your god, just like how you claim that reality is evidence for your god like every other theist. Again, which morals are objective, Chad and how can you demonstrate that? As I’ve noted, even christians have no way to show that their particular set of morals is objective. Each of you claims that and each of you fail.
It’s lovely that you keep insisting that maybe maybe someday I’ll agree with you in the “right” situation. If I were under a ruthless regime, I still would have subjective moralty as would the regime. I can always say something is wrong, since that is my subjective opinion.
Again, where is your evidence that any morality is objective?
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Finally? Poor Chad, I never said anything different. I’m still waiting for you to show objective morality. Where is it, Chad?
And yep, still no universal objective anything from you, Chad. Again, morals are subjective. Value is subjective. Where are your objective morals and values, Chad?
Ype, your worldview asserts something you cannot show as true. So? Christians themselves can’t agree on what morals their god wants, so your god doesn’t define objective morality at all. And since you can’t show your god merely exists, you have nothin.
That many morals are common right now doesn’st mean your imaginary friend exists, Chad. That what was considered moral in your bible isn’t considered moral now is rather strong evidence your claims are simply false. The moral that killing for land was considered moral amongst most cultures a couple of hundred years ago doesn’t show that your god exists or that was an objective morality.
No special revelation, and curious how Christians themselves refuse to follow those commandments that are attributed to moses/god. There are far more than ten commandments.
If a child couldn’t understand something, would you explain it to them, Chad? Of course you would, and yet you try to argue that your god doesn’t have to. Your argument means you wouldn’t explain to a child and then blame them for burning themselves when it was your choice to leave them ignorant and thus endanger them.
The founding fathers were mostly deists, not Christians like you. They also meant that only land owning white men had those rights.
Curious how your god allowed four men to die horribly and they chose to invade and bother a tribe. That ignorant tribes people believe lies also doesn’t make your religion beneficial or true. Yep, cults transform people. So? Christians used to thrive on killing anyone who disagreed with them. Missionaries are rather pathetic people, spreading harmful lies, disease, and often trying to convert other Christians. My former church does that, which again belies your claims of Christians being one big happy family. It’s notable how Christians have had to export their hate of LGBT+ people overseas.
The supposed prophecies in the OT also fail. The gospels can’t agree on where jesus was born or where he was from. Bethlehem? Nazareth? Someone’s birthplace says where they are “from”, so why isn’t it Jesus of Bethlehem? All you have are stories claiming the prophecies were fulfilled. It’s easy to write such nonsense, Chad.
Daniel 9 is a notable instance where jews and Christians can’t agree on what the “weeks” even mean. Isaiah 53 has claims aboat a messiah and jesus fails them. Shall we look at it?
“He was despised and rejected by others;
a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity;
and as one from whom others hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him of no account.”
Jesus was accepted.
“8 Many people spread their cloaks on the road, and others spread leafy branches that they had cut in the fields. 9 Then those who went ahead and those who followed were shouting,
‘Hosanna!
Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!
10 Blessed is the coming kingdom of our ancestor David!
Hosanna in the highest heaven!’”
“Surely he has borne our infirmities
and carried our diseases;
yet we accounted him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted.”
Jesus was struck down by the Romans, not this god.
“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.”
Curious how Jesus is quite a chatty fellow, especially in the gospel of john.
another supposed prophecy that jesus failed at:
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen, in whom my soul delights;
I have put my spirit upon him;
he will bring forth justice to the nations.
2 He will not cry or lift up his voice,
or make it heard in the street;
3 a bruised reed he will not break,
and a dimly burning wick he will not quench;
he will faithfully bring forth justice.
4 He will not grow faint or be crushed
until he has established justice in the earth;
and the coastlands wait for his teaching.” Isaiah 42.
and Isaiah 11 is quite a fail too. The Jewish messiah doesn’t need a do-over.
“They made his grave with the wicked
and his tomb with the rich,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.”
remember that incident in the temple?
still waiting for those objective morals.
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Quick thought experiment: If you had the means (let’s say a button) to evaporate all Christians from the earth right now, would you press it? Why/why not? (Clarification: Assuming no legal consequences to you of course)
Just curious.. they seem to hinder survival in your worldview, and there is only subjective (your) morality.. so I’m real curious of your answer.
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Nice of you to try to change the subject away from your failure to show that any morality is objective, Chat.
All christians aren’t the same, so, nope, I wouldn’t press your “button”. Happily, many christians are humane, intelligent, etc despite the religion. Unfortunately, quite a few aren’t. Not all christians, or other theists, hinder survival.
I’m not like your genocidal god that has no problem killing people for disagreeing with it, and killing people for things they didn’t do and had no control over. You have the religion that says your god *will* press that button when it comes to anyone not the “right” kind of christian. Is that acceptable to you, Chad?
I will assume it is acceptable to you since you are a christian. And with that, I can show that christian morality is entirely subjective. Your morals change depending on who/what someone is when it comes to what they can and can’t do.
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Good morning! I’m not changing this subject. You asked me to show you objective morality. I’m trying to show you that, even in the midst of your fallenness and sinfulness, you still may have a knowledge of the objective morality God has revealed naturally.
Would you press the button, given the opportunity, for the Christians that do hinder survival? Why or why not?
As for Morality changing based on who someone is, objective morality does not change. A sin is a sin. However, as we see in our everyday existence, the consequences to our sin are different depending on whom the actors involved are. Treason against the entire nation yields different consequences than betraying a friend. We have no right, as creatures, to ever insist that our creator has too harsh of a penalty for our treason against him. Nor do we have a right to extend judicial punishments beyond our authorization as creatures.
God has every right to press the button at any time, and we would deserve it. The very fact that he even gives us breath every day is sheer grace in the midst of our constant Rebellion against his laws. The wages of sin is death, both physical and eternal. Sin consists of not only the mere outward things, but the inner motivations that result in them, like hatred, jealousy, pride, etc.
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Still waiting for you to show objective morality, Chad. Now, wer are to you saying “you may have a knowledge”, when you can’t show that at all. What are these objective morals I supposedly know about and how can yuo show they are objective?
I have already responded to your question, why do you ask it again? Here’s my answer for you to read again:
“All christians aren’t the same, so, nope, I wouldn’t press your “button”. Happily, many christians are humane, intelligent, etc despite the religion. Unfortunately, quite a few aren’t. Not all christians, or other theists, hinder survival.
I’m not like your genocidal god that has no problem killing people for disagreeing with it, and killing people for things they didn’t do and had no control over. You have the religion that says your god *will* press that button when it comes to anyone not the “right” kind of christian. Is that acceptable to you, Chad?
I will assume it is acceptable to you since you are a christian. And with that, I can show that christian morality is entirely subjective. Your morals change depending on who/what someone is when it comes to what they can and can’t do.”
My answer will not change.
And again, curious how you still can’t show objective morality existing at all. By definition, objective morality would apply to everyone/thing. Christians claim that their god does not have to follow the morality they claim it gave to them (btw, eve took it). If a sin is a sin, then your god sins, if killing children is objectively immoral.
The punishment doesn’t make a sin not a sin.
And you simply baselessly assert that humans can’t question your god. You have again shown that objective morality does not exist, Chad.
Yep, you say that genocide is morally acceptable to you if your god wants it. This means that, if morality is objective, then it would be fine for humans to do it too. If humans can’t do it morally, but your god can, you have two different sets of morals, dependent on who the actor is. Your morality depends, e.g. is subject to, who they are.
And since christians can’t agree on what laws their god wants them to follow, your assertion we are in “rebellion” has nothing to rebel against.
If hatred, jealousy, pride are sins, your god is again sinning. Your bible has it claiming it hate, is jealous, and is prideful. No objective morality yet again.
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It’s interesting how you don’t listen to a thing I say and then just continue to answer as if I didn’t give an answer at all. This conversation isn’t productive.
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I do listen to what you say. All you have given are baseless claims that depend on your presupposition that a god exists. Chad. You have not shown that “revelation” is real. You cannot show which morals your god wants.
You cannot show that these morals are accepted by everyone and apply to everyone, including your god. Where is your evidence?
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You just assert the wrongness of any reasonable interpretation of Scripture I mention (even though countless scholars agree with those), rather than even saying, “I suppose that is one answer”. You do the same with any reasonable explanation I give for why God’s execution of justice is not the same as ours (similar to the analogy of treason vs personal betrayal). Nope, you simply speak as if you are the sole “objective” arbiter of all truth and anything said is just wrong, which is ironic since you only believe in subjective truth. Then you call me a liar constantly. I quote something DIRECTLY from you that said your perceptions are objective, and you call it a FALSE claim. And then you keep demanding more answers. You’re very difficult to even have a friendly conversation with because every response is this continual jabbing and declaration that you are winning a debate or something. And to top it off, you never even answered my second question, which was different than the first. Would you press the button on those that you know ARE hindering survival at some level? (you said SOME are reasonable)
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Every christian claims that only their interpretation of scripture is reasonable and is the only right one. Your problem is that not one christian can support their claims, including you.
Unsurprisngly, “countless scholars” don’t agree with what yuo like, only those christians who share your version. Your exaggeration is false and shows your desperation. I know better.
You give me your excuses for your god, and you give me your excuses for why I should believe that it is just, when the bible’s own stories show that it is not. Is it just to kill someonen for something they didn’t do, Chad?
Yes or no?
I speak as if I have my own opinions, and you have yet to show morality is objective at all, or that any christian has the one “right” answer.
I do call you a liar when you lie. So? You have yet to quote anything from me that says my perceptions are objective. My perceptions work and thus I interact with reality correctly.
I do demand more answers since you have been unable to supply anything but baseless claims.
I have answered your question, but nice lies that I haven’t. You even admit that I have answered it.
You have asked this “Would you press the button on those that you know ARE hindering survival at some level? ” and before you asked this: “Quick thought experiment: If you had the means (let’s say a button) to evaporate all Christians from the earth right now, would you press it? Why/why not? ”
You want to change the question since you didn’t like my answer to your original question. That’s quite dishonest, Chad.
So, now we have your new question:
“Would you press the button, given the opportunity, for the Christians that do hinder survival? Why or why not?”
Yep, I would if a christian was a threat to me and mine. If you would keep your hate and ignorance out of government, we would have no problem. Your religion is based on the destruction of anyone who dares not agree with you.
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Yep, your god said hey would work. And it knew that they wouldn’t. So your god lied, and you try to blame people who followed the laws for them not working. Per your religion, the laws were never meant to work if jesus was the “real” idea all along. Paul claims that so you have a problem.
Yep, jesus says that one needs to give up all of your possessions and your family to follow him. If he knows no one will do that, no point to give the laws at all, just go straight to jesus.
And since jesus changes the meanings of these laws, how were the jews supposed to know, Chad? Jesus doesn’t fit the Jewish messiah, so why does this god seem to repeatedly lie to people? Yep, lust is equated with adultery, so per this god people who lust should be stoned to death? Since Christians can’t agree on what their god wants, “internal righteousness” is just more babble about what everyone’s opinion is.
Why would a “spirit” need blood, Chad? That’s what all bronze/iron age gods invented by humans want, just like your god. Yes, I am sure you don’t understand it. That’s because it makes no sense at all. Yep, gov’ts have death penalties, your god is no better than a puny human government? Sins are finite, so your nonsense about infinite treason doesn’t work. The only infinite treason would have to come from something infinite, like your god supposedly is.
The gospels aren’t eyewitness testimonies. Nothing shows supports that at all. No one knows who wrote them. Simon Greenleaf, from the 18th century, was simply ignorant. Nice appeal to authority fallacy which fails. Nothing shows who the authors were, so nonsense about “honesty” fails. Nothing about ability is known other than it is unlikely fishermen were literate and wrote this nonsense. Numbers of lies doesn’t make those lies true. The testimony isn’t consistent. Sorry, Chad I’ve actually read these things and they are hilarious for their contradictions. No “collateral circumstance” since no one noticed this nonsense going on.
Ah, the usual lie from the Christian “you don’t want this to be true”. My wants have nothing to do with reality. You have no evidence for your claims. You christains can’t even agree on what your ”truth” is so I have no idea what I don’t’ want to be true amongst all of you contradictory nonsense.
As always, you have yet to show that I’m “so wrong”. The apostles creed isn’t the only core doctrine of Christianity per all of the different versions of Christianity. It’s great you enjoy the screwtape letters, you are a subject of them. Curious how your “silly disagreements” caused Christians to murder each other and surprise, your god did nothing. It’s quite an outright lie that you “mostly agree that we’ll be in heaven together”.
Yep, I keep beating a horse, since you can’t show I’m wrong. Again, which version of christnaity is the true one, Chad? They can’t all be true. And there is no need for even one of them to be true. IT’s nice how you try to change the subject. I’m an atheist since not one of you TrueChristians™ have evidence for your claims.
Every sect claims that only it interprets the bible “faithfully” and curious how not one of you can agree on who does that “correctly”. Unsurprsisnlgy, it isn’t like scientists, since not one Christian has any evidence to support their claims. And yes, you are trying to claim one is better the others. That’s what “striving for accuracy” means. What is better, Chad, something that is accurate or that which is inaccurate?
Yep, here we go with you saying that the church you were at was wrong, and that you know what the “historical church” was and that is is somehow better than what you had at your church. Yep, that makes you looking for the ‘right’ church. It does have quite a bit to do with if god is real since you Christians can’t agree on which god is the one that is real. Is it the god that has no problem with LGBT+ people? Is it the one who says they deserve death and worse? Is it the god who will eventually free everyone from hell? Or is it the one who will eternally torture them?
Actually your jesus prayed to himself/his father that the church wouldn’t split. Curious how even jesus can’t get a prayer answered. You aren’t just imperfect, you directly contradict each other. Yep, and here’s you claiming that those who don’t’ agree with you are the “false teachers” when you can’t show your version is the right one. Those other Christians are sure you are the false teacher. That cults split isn’t anything prophetic. It always happens.
Yep, John 14 does indeed say that every believer will be able to do miracles like jesus and get *any* prayer answered. Curious how jesus gave no exceptions. Do you believe jesus or paul, Chad, since they repeatedly contradict each other? As for your claim that jesus is only speaking to the disciples, I guess that means the whole sermon on the mount is just to those who were in the audience, that john 3:16 is only to Philemon, that when Paul wrote a letter to the Romans, it was only them that had to hate LGBT+ people, etc. Christians try the “but he wasn’t speaking to everyone, so we don’t have to do that” excuse often but then try to tell people that what they find convenient, and just addressed to a limited audience applies to everyone.
I also love your nonsense about a greater “quality” of miracles. Hmm, how does one determine a miracle’s quality? James5 makes the same claims and surprise, it isn’t just the apostles being talked to.
“So what?” ROFL. If Christians can’t agree if miracles still happen, which of you are the liars, Chad? Again, that you agree on one miracle doesn’t mean you are wrong here. I have studied cessationism, and surprise how it does say that all miracles have ceased. Yes, some cessationists try to claim that heir god still does them, but people don’t. Again, yet more disagreement on thingsn you can’t show are true. As often happens, Christians aren’t always Christians, but paulianists, and that’s where the differences come in.
The gospels are simply stories and nothing shows that any truth has been “Preserved” within them. That is simply a lie, Chad. Jewish and roman historians report on what Christians believed, not one says what they believed was true. And again, the lies of “minimal facts” and that “liberal scholars” agree with your religion fail. It is nothing like actual forensic evaluation, but nice false claim again. All you have are claims. Nothing more.
More promises of praying and still nothing happening, Chad. Why has your god thrown you under the bus? What excuse will you offer since your god does nothing? Ah, what you will do is claim that failure is okay, when it is obviously not. No evidence for your god, and Christians have been promising their god will return for 2000+ years now, and Christians have lied every step of the way. No reason to believe your generation is different. You can’t even agree on what being like “christ” even is.
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BTW, my niece goes to Grove City and I know just how pathetic that college is when it comes to its ignorance about evolution, etc.
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BTW, thanks for bashing my seminary. I put years of work into that and don’t appreciate that. They were associated with ABHE at the time, which was the same accreditation firm for Moody Bible institute. They just don’t like governmental control and the need to charge enormous prices. You also failed to mention my other Master’s in Engineering from a “real” school, but perhaps you didn’t want your fans to know that.
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No problem, I bash liars when I can. Seminaries are rather amusing since they also each think that only their versin is true, and not a single pastor that come out of them can do what jesus promises.
They don’t like being held accountable for their fraud. Do tell what your degree in engineering has to do with your christian claims. Why would I mention it? Oh Chad can do computers, so his god is real?
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